Episode 17: Setting Her Own Rules While Helping Media Companies Grow, with Jill Cromwell

May 11, 2021

Do you ever meet someone and instantly click with them on so many levels? Well that happened with my guest this week, Jill Cromwell. When I first came across Jill, I was very impressed by her professional path, then as we talked and got to know one another, I was able to confirm we were on the same wave length! Jill is the founder of Cromwell Collective, a full service media consultancy, mom of two, and overall awesome human. She dives into her career path; starting with her time at big publishers, and how the lack of support pushed her out on her own. Jill talks about how she grew so big organically (which is no small feat), how it took sometime for her dad to come around and how she and her husband (casually) started their own businesses at the same time — and still run them today!

Jill had some great professional insights, but what I took most from her was her ability to come back to her North Star — having time with her kids. She uses that as a check in when things get overwhelming or she has to make a decision. I love this idea of having your values guide your decisions — it helps when things can get overwhelming with ideas, opportunities and big plans.

I know you will take some great insights from this episode like it did! Make sure to follow Jill on Instagram and check out her website!

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Full Transcript:

Dana: Are you dying at the thought of missing a single one of your baby’s first would have no idea how you’d give up the security that your nine to five job brings.

My name is Dana Graham and I had no clue how to escape that vicious 40 Hour Workweek cycle either until I did, as the wife of a traveling husband and mom of two tiny humans, I made the terrifying and totally bizarre leap from health insurance broker to successful newborn and family photographer, all with the amazing craziness of a two year old and the newborn in tow. But I’m not the only one. I’m so glad you’re joining me as I chat with other moms who took the leap into entrepreneurship and created the ultimate best of both worlds life doing it all amidst the chaos.

Okay hi everybody I’m so excited to be back for another episode of amidst the chaos, this week I have on such an exciting guest, her name is Joe Cromwell Wang, and she’s here to tell us her story so Joe, why don’t you give us a quick overview of what you’re doing now what your business is and then we’ll take a step back and figure out how you got there.

Jill: Great. Hi, happy to be here. So, my business right now is kind of a mash up of a media consultancy firm, you know, there have been traditional rep agencies in the media space for a long time. Mine in particular really focuses on startup media companies and helping them monetize their platforms. There’s a lot of, you know, sales, add UPS marketing that goes into that role and not a lot of, you know startup companies have the funds to, to kind of fill up all of those roles so I kind of come in and handle all of them doing kind of the sales and the marketing and management of those

Dana: awesome well that’s great so, so obviously you work for yourself, You’re entrepreneur you have some mom thing going all the different aspects are happening, but walk me through how you got there. So where were you when you were working, you know, a more corporate job and for somebody else, what did your family look like and what did your day to day work life look like?

Dana: Sure. So I started my career at big publishing houses like Fairchild and, which then folded into Conde Nast, and was a sales executive there. So, that’s where I started, I then went on to like Rodale, which is like, you know, Women’s Health Men’s Health Runner’s World, those kind of passion point publications and that was something that I was always very passionate about it. As a sales person I personally need to be overly passionate about what I’m selling, otherwise I’m terrible salesperson, self.

Dana:  That’s great advice in itself.

Jill: Yeah, I’m like I need to believe in it fully develop. So yes, that’s what I was doing, and then kind of right after I got married, I, you know, had seen this blog in the wellness space I was very personally passionate about wellness and saw that they were kind of developing into a media site so had reached out to them, you know, wanting to shift gears and really learn more because at these corporate companies I really wasn’t learning or growing I was just selling really in the ends and right, I would sell something and then it was on to the next to so I really wanted to kind of fully understand the backend, the processes, know how a media company starts really, so I ended up going there and running their, their sales and obviously with that, you know, running their sales is also doing all the Add ups and doing the marketing for that and so I learned a lot and I learned a ton of different roles that I never would have had experience doing, so that was really wonderful. I was like the third person there. And then when I left there, I, you know, I was. I went back so I was pregnant with my first. While I was there, kind of talking through the maternity policy with a small startup is very challenging. there was no policy. And so I just started to kind of get the glimpse on how like, how difficult it was going to be to be a working mom at a court more of a corporate setting so I went on my maternity leave, I was like getting calls all the time they let go of my maternity cover. You know my maternity coverage, and I just, it just wasn’t working and so I went back, knowing that it just really probably wasn’t gonna work I was, you know, pumping in meetings, I was like on a phone call someone walked in, while I was pumping it just was a mess. So, yeah, so kind of shortly after that I ended up, you know, leaving and starting my own thing. I just really didn’t see how I could do it all, I felt like I was failing at everything, honestly. And that’s, that’s really kind of when I started my own bank.

Dana:  Yeah and I think that is you just exemplified exactly how so many moms feel especially when you go to work after your first and you really aren’t sure, you know what it’s going to be like and how your maternity coverage was and how long it’s going to be and even just seeing that package before your first babies even born. Most people don’t think to look at that. Most people don’t think okay before I’m hired for this job, like, what are the benefits and how, like, of course you’re gonna look at salary as a benefit, but are you factoring in the cost of your health care are you factoring in the cost of, you know your maternity leave and how much money you know, income, you’re going to be losing while you’re out. And I think that’s quite the reality check for pretty much everyone. I mean I, it’s funny that you’ve been bringing this up I was an insurance broker like a health insurance broker and so the amount of people that had no idea when they got pregnant what their maternity leave was going to be like is, it’s terrible and it’s hard to, like, you know, reconcile with the fact that hey, I am not going to have as much as much time as I thought with this baby and then you’re going back, and it’s a whole new world, you know, pumping and and transporting the milk and making sure it stayed refrigerated properly and all the different things, it’s just, it’s crazy and things that you don’t think about, you know, so, so much so obviously think about. Yeah, and so obviously for you. That was a big part of it right this overarching like stretched too thin, too many things going on. But how did you then realize, okay, I could do something on my own because that’s a big leap between okay hey I work for this company too. I got this. I’m gonna start my own

Jill: Yeah, so basically I left there and went into like a much more flexible, kind of full time role at another startup company, and so I went there, it was much more flexible I worked from home three days a week. And so I started to kind of like, see how I could do this how I could kind of like work from home still be present and see my kids I obviously had health I needed someone to watch, child. But I, yeah, I could see how I could do this and kind of be both places at the same time. So sort of doing that and while I was working there I started networking. So I started kind of reaching out to some of these other startup companies. You know, and seeing where they were at like, were they looking to start monetizing their platforms. Is that something that I could you know begin to help with consult with it all looks different, like some people just need help with sales, and then they handled, you know the back end and add up stuff, so I was flexible in what I could offer, depending on on data so that I think was really helpful that I wasn’t, you know, approaching them with a, you know, one size fits all kind of approach I’ve just kind of said like here, here’s my expertise I kind of know how to do it all based on you know my past experience at startups. How can I help, how can I start helping. So that was what I was doing kind of while I was, you know, working this other full time job it obviously was giving me the flexibility. So I, I started doing that and so I started working with two startups. I was oh I should add this and I also then realized I was pregnant with my second that I’ve been trouble, right, just just throw that in there, and then I was like that really lit a fire under me I was, I had a seven month old and I was pregnant with my second. And I was like, okay, okay, I gotta figure this, I really have to. So that’s how I always feel like I’m like, I would never have done this if I didn’t have kids, like saying there’s something that lights a fire under you and you’re like, I will make this work, I will. It’s a mom right it’s, it’s moms, it’s like, yeah, what they do. Um, so I knew I would make it work. I didn’t know what it was gonna look like, but I knew it would make it work and I like I have added that, like, super privileged to have the opportunity to my husband, you know, he has a great job and supports us, you know, financially, and I knew that I had that privilege to be able to just try it and see if I could make it work. So that’s what I started doing, and then I left that other full time job. All right, when I went out, before I had my second baby.

Dana:  Okay, so yeah so that time like that’s almost exactly what happened with me and my kids it was like by the second time I got pregnant. The second I was like, this isn’t gonna work, and I wanted it to, I really did. I love my job and I wanted it to work, but just the sheer number of hours and like my job wasn’t a job where you just kind of clocked in clocked out and could do some things on this, like I worked for all of those hours and I think for me it wasn’t possible to kind of do both for a very well for any amount of time but it, it coincided with my maternity leave, so I think it’s funny to see other moms with that same kind of timeline of having those kids and which one sends you over the edge to make something new happen. So, going back to when you were when you were finding these new clients where were you finding them, how are you getting them, how are you approaching them, like how did you get them on board with your, your idea?

Jill: It’s a great question. So, kind of. Rewinding back to when I reached out to that initial, you know at the time it was a small blog. When I was working in a corporate publishing role. I have just always been like, I just I like to be in the know of like new and upcoming media sites and like platforms and things like that. So especially in like the wellness space that’s generally what I personally passionate about so I’m always kind of like looking for new get out new sites new information. So I, you know, that was helpful and of itself, so I was always kind of scouring that. And I would just reach out I would reach out to their like I would find their website and find the founders information and just send them an email letting them know my backgrounds and you know where I’ve worked, and you know what I saw how I could help them, you know what I was envisioning, my role as and seeing if I could help them monetize it you know it’s always helpful when I’m, when I’m there to bring in revenue, like, people love to hear that like how I can make money for them right like I’m an entrepreneur myself like I that’s obviously helpful. So that’s really what I started doing and I just started reaching out and people just, I don’t know people trusted me and that, you know, that goes a long way, and I also have the benefit of like a lot of the people I worked with in my you know my other startup jobs went other places, so like, there were the girl that I was was doing marketing for me at my old startup job, you know, went to another media site and she’s like she would contact me and be like, oh you know they need, they need help on the sales front like to, you know, kind of put them in touch with you and then another girl was you know on the editorial side and she was at a different startup, and then she you know, let them know that I was doing this so that was really helpful to have a network of people in the space to, you know, to promote me honestly. Yeah,

Dana: I think having that network is so crucial, and it’s even people that you don’t even for me it’s been people that I don’t even realize are technically in my network, right, it’s yes people maybe I’ve worked with or people who have worked with someone that I worked with and knew of me from something else I mean it’s very, the way that your net can kind of expand is something that you don’t even realize is happening until you’re like, oh I actually do know that person who could help me with this. Yeah and I think the longer that you’re doing things the wider that gets without I mean not without plenty of effort, but not maybe not it wasn’t on that front, I mean you’re working hard but maybe not necessarily with the purposes of growing your network, but it just kind of naturally happens when you’re working with new people.

Jill: That’s exactly right. And like I, when I started it was like the two media sites that I was working with were, you know what I reached out to those that I reached out to, and then you know it just started like snowballing a little bit and I didn’t really set out to you know to make this like a company like I set out to, you know help some media sites while I was also doing the mom thing on the side like doing both and I was like okay I’ll you know I’ll work with one media site and they’ll freelance. I, you know, that’ll be it and then it just started snowballing and I’m also just not like I can’t really say no it’s not a great quality. Sometimes I, I’m still learning, but I want to take I think it’s really interesting and I find entrepreneurs really interesting so to surround myself with all of these and they’re all primarily women owns us like is super fascinating to me and I love it so much so I didn’t want to say no, but then it you know it, quickly snowballed which was good.

Dana: Yeah, so, okay, so excuse me for not being like, in the know of what exactly this means but backup for those listeners, myself included, who don’t necessarily know what you mean by a media company like what qualifies them to be someone that you would help, what do they do.

Jill: So in an ideal world, and mainly what I do now because I’m not the more selective and who I work with is a, you know, a company that you, you know, a digital platform so whether that’s a website, or Instagram, mainly Instagram. Anyone, anyone who needs sponsorship or is looking for sponsorship of their content or their platform. That’s what I do, so then I kind of work with whatever that platform is, and come up with like lists of clients or things that we want to be getting together things that we want to get sponsored, and I will, you know, pitch the brands and bring in ad revenue, essentially.

Dana: Awesome. Well I think that’s I generally what I was thinking but it’s nice to hear it in, in kind of a clear, concise way and it’s one of, to me, I mean I didn’t grow up or have any sort of education in the media or advertising world at all. I like studied psychology and education like different, very different and so for me this is one of those situations where I didn’t know that this was a job, like I didn’t know that what you do is something that a lot of people could do, you know and and it’s very cool that you know you took it from hey this is my expertise, this is what I’ve learned this is what I know and you pivoted it to do, sort of as a freelancer and on the side while you’re doing the mom thing which, to me, when they’re really young, is a little bit more, all consuming then once they hit that you know one year at a two year phase. But then at that point, you could pivot it so you said it kind of snowballed and took off, and you couldn’t say no. So what made you make the leap from like freelancing to actually forming this company.

Jill: It’s a great question. I still feel like I’m figuring that out. It kind of shit, you know, it really changed when I was, when I hit like the four media sites, you know, capacity, like I couldn’t handle it myself, with more media sites because that’s, you know, it’s essentially for full time jobs that. So I was like I need to have because sales and and of itself is all like, there’s always someone else you can sell there’s always someone else. Yeah, like there’s always something else. And so it was hard for me to, You know, break it up and be able to give each media platform the attention it deserved and needed. And so then I started, you know, bringing on people, and they all are generally like freelance, you know, working moms. So that’s when I, that’s when it really started to just be like me freelancing to, you know, having a little bit of a smaller company, and kind of like a one stop shop for all things, you know, ad sales.

Unknown 8:19
Right. And so for those when you went, when you went about hiring, I mean, what side of that house like the business house. Did you know, like, did you not know. Okay, so what did you do to, to, you’re like, I hate it. This is not what I hate it. What did you do to survive then in that side, like obviously you’re very well versed in what you do but the business side of things you have to kind of make happen to.

Jill: Yeah. So luckily, a good girlfriend of mine who I worked my very first job with selling classified ads for Women’s Wear Daily. But we, she was at the time, at a, you know, big corporate company, and really wanted to change it up really wanted she wanted to move out to the West Coast, she wanted more time to travel, just have her own schedule, so she left to come help me. And that was huge because I didn’t have to like hire anyone like we had to sit down and figure out, you know, all of that, but it was a friend and I really trusted her. So that was helpful and then from there it’s just been, you know, hiring people, as needed, and generally it’s, you know, interns. Some, like admin type of work that is needed.

Dana: Yeah, yeah, it’s a hard. It’s a hard kind of bubble that pops, it’s difficult to deal with when you’re like okay I’m almost to the brink, but like am I big enough, am I at the point where I do need to expand, or am I going to kind of sit here right on the edge, and for me it’s, it’s a matter of mental health versus, you know, income and profitability because it’s, it’s one or the other, you know, at a certain point, until you get way past that level.

Jill: Yeah, and it was really hard for me because with the nature of what I do, too, like, I don’t always have the same media sites like some people contract me for six months. Others do it for a year, other people, you know turned me off after two months, you know, so I never really know how many media platforms, I’m going to be representing at a time. And so it’s hard to bring on more people because then I could go back the next month to what you know so right, it’s that was challenging, and you know when my friend came she was in talks with another kind of startup media company so it helped but she came with one. So then we kind of built from there, too. But that’s always that for me was like a hard thing and realizing like, how much can I handle on and when do I need to hire.

Dana: Yeah and you know that’s also a balance too with having the kids around and for me I did not have childcare for a long time, doing my business, I could you know, do sessions when my husband was home in the evenings, and I could, you know, edit and stuff all the kids were napping or after bedtime, and there was a point where I was like, I am too busy I have too much work, I can’t handle this anymore, and I probably lived there for way longer than I should have probably hung out at that at that Brink for longer than I should have and I think that knowing, coming up with a plan for me was like, Okay, if I can have x more hours of solid dedicated work time I can bring in x more dollars to fund, you know this this time that I have off. So, or have off from from being a mom, I guess you don’t really get time off, but time where you’re not directly in charge, how about that.

Jill: Yeah, and that was the other thing too is that I quickly found myself in an over overly full time role and I was like wait a second to reason I did, I actually come back to my core and be like, the reason I did this was so that I had flexibility, why am I so I’m like to stress I’m not spending quality time that I wanted with the kids. And I’m like, what, what’s going on so I had to kind of pull myself back. And that’s when I knew I needed more help.

Dana: Okay so that so that contributed to needing more help was having that flexibility and time with the kids, so how, how do you manage your time now like, do you have hard boundaries with like hey these are my work hours and I’m done or you kind of like fluid with how with how your business is run and how the time you take with your kids and your family.

Jill: It’s hard question, mainly because of the pandemic, but my kids are now in, like, non pandemic. Like I know back in school and like I have them for a longer school day so they’re from nine to 330 and those are my working hours, Like, I, my husband drops them off at school. So basically, you know, he drops, he’s responsible for that part of the day. And then, you know, after 330 Like, I’m on mom duty and so all of my clients know that those are my hours, and it’s been really good I initially didn’t set boundaries. That was something that was really important, giving actual, you know, this is what time I woke until, because I think as a, you know I think everything in today’s world too was, you’re always on right so I. Those are my, Yeah, so essentially, that was my working hours and then I you know I do the mob thing I really try to shut down as much as possible. And then after the kids go to bed I do, you know, get back on the computer and work again for, you know, for the evening those nights but yes, I do have dedicated work time, There was a time where I tried to, you know just fit it in and kind of I was a little looser with it, and it just, I felt like I was not a great mom. I wasn’t doing enough for work. I felt like I could have been doing more and then I knew I just needed to like really have a dedicated time to work.

Dana: Yeah, and again, for me, it’s a seasonal thing right, I mean COVID is just a short everything but COVID aside it’s a seasonal thing when they’re really really little, you know, and you’re doing all the pumping or the nursing or whatever it is, it’s, it was harder for me to leave, than it was, you know, get someone to watch the kids than it was for me to just stay. Yeah, more effort, you know, and a lot of times and so I want to encourage any mom who’s in that, you know, early stage of baby life, it does get easier to, to kind of manage that and just and also to justify the time away for me it was hard to justify time away with, you know my son who was, you know, nursing until tiny and little and what Mike might know that they’re toddlers. They love having the babysitter, she knows awesome stuff with them and like it’s different than having mom there and it’s somebody new, and they do things that they normally wouldn’t do with me and so it makes me feel good about having them go somewhere else, but I didn’t feel that way when they were really little, I really didn’t. And so, if you’re in that situation I want to encourage that, That that that’s how I experienced it.

Jill: I agree and when we, when I started, you know, doing my own thing, it was, you know, my son was just born. My second, and my daughter was 16 months, and they were home and I you know, we had a nanny, and, you know, thank goodness, but it was nice that I could you know I would work upstairs that I would come down and and feed him. I didn’t have to lug my pump to the office, and then store the milk and bring it home and you know and leave a list like I remember when I went back to my guests, you know, job I was like texting my nanny all the time I’m also really personally bad at, like, letting go, like I like to be in control and so like that’s my own problem. But I was texting her all of the time and like, what’s going on what’s best. What’s up, so I just like I felt more present in all aspects when I was just home, and I was working from home, you know, she was taking care of the kids but I could come up and down, feed them, you know, do what needed to be done while still working, but, yeah, yeah, so I think, I think finding that balance and knowing that it is kind of a season of that early, early stage, and that it does get a little bit easier as is really encouraging.

Dana: So how did the rest of your family feel about you moving into entrepreneurship and, you know, leaving a corporate job with benefits and all the things to start your own your own adventure.

Jill: Not good. My, my dad i My dad worked his entire career at one company and, you know. So he was like stunned, even when I went to a startup company in general even when full time job. That was like blowing his mind and he always felt like I was moving around too much and so it was yeah, he didn’t. The real kicker was when we had our second, and then my husband also left to do his own thing. And then my dad and then that really set my dad off.

Dana: Oh my gosh, so that was like similar timing of you both.

Jill: So yeah, that’s another layer to that. Yeah, so that was interesting yeah he. Yeah, He left his job, right after I had my baby, probably, yeah, like two months after that. So that was interesting, like we were both working from home, you know, it’s what everyone’s doing now. I know, so we weren’t we were, You know COVID We were ready for this, um, we were both working on, you know upstairs, and that was interesting because my husband were both on the phone, all of the time. And that was interesting. We definitely had to figure out our setup, and, you know, dedicate phone time and try to do those things, but it was really nice. Honestly though he at his old job, you know would get home. That was the other issue for me too is that I would get home and do dinner bedtime, wash the bottles to everything and then my husband would come home to figuring out what after they were. So that, that was hard, and I, so it was nice to have him honestly arounds and he was able to also pitch in, So I just felt like our households functioned in actually a much better way like we had some things that we needed to work through. Of course, you know, almost co workers for a little bit but, um, it was really nice, and you know he would take phone calls and make dinner and I would you know take phone calls and clean up so I felt like when work was done we could be present and like enjoy the family and hang out.

Dana: Yeah and I think, you know, having to my, I guess. Here’s a better way to phrase it. So when you guys both left to start your own thing. It requires kind of a lot of time, and I feel like for me, when I, especially when I’m like launching a new product or like have a new idea coming down the pipeline like my, I’m just thinking about it all the time, and my brain is always on overdrive of hey this is what I could be doing. So how did you guys as a team manage like that mental load of shutting off because if you’re both starting something new, I’m, I would bet that both of you probably have your minds just kind of whirling around in rap. I like, I feel like I would, I don’ know that I’m stable enough to support somebody else with a brain like mine right now.

Jill: You know, it was like it was fun I have to tell you like it was a lot of. We like put one of those like whiteboard like stick up whiteboards in our like in our living room, and we would just always be writing down ideas and like commenting on each other’s ideas. And that was like the best way to do it for us like we wanted to support each other but like there’s, to your point, like there was just too much going on for each device that I didn’t have didn’t really have tight and I feel like I actually bother him much more because like, even with like the account some of that accounting stuff of the business I don’t want anything to do with any of it and so I’m like sending him statements that he’s like I’m not part of your business. I don’t want to do it. But we didn’t Yeah, so we have like a nice little whiteboard thing going where we would just like put ideas or things that we’re kind of working on or goals and stuff like that and we would kind of like cheer each other on a little bit through that. That’s a kind of how we do that.

Dana: Well, that’s awesome. I, we always joke that like, my, my husband works for the government, he’s a State Department and so he and he’s always wanted to do. His parents were State Department and he’s, you know, always had this like dream he’s very altruistic he wants to live all over the world and do all the things for all the people, and I like just wanted to be a mom, like that’s all. Like I’d never moved in my life and so we joke that like he’s the one that, you know, had all these like big goals and like Aspers and I’m the one that’s like starting my own business, what what is that how did this parallel universe happen where we’re in the totally opposite boat so it’s, it’s nice to have to have a partner to lean on and you know obviously having that support in, and for you. It must be really nice to have him understand what it’s like to start a company because it’s a, it’s a big deal and a lot, a lot riding on that.

Jill: It’s a big deal and I’m like a panic or like I’ve, like I panic about, yeah, yeah and and especially right there’s a lot of, I feel the weight, like right like I feel like if I fail at something like, I have to like, hit it, and I have to figure it it’s all on me right and so like that, that weight feels like a lot sometimes and I panic about it, and my husband’s very good at, you know, just saying like, you know, take the time, figure it out, you know, even if you don’t work like if you have no clients for a month. That’s okay, like, it’ll give you the time to rethink everything. So it’s, yeah, it’s super I think it’s super important as someone who’s, you know, trying to do things differently, being an entrepreneur like having a someone that’s supporting you, like that’s supportive of you.

Dana: Yeah, I think, I think everybody needs somebody like that and it doesn’t have to be your spouse, it could be a really close friend or sibling or parent, but it’s nice to have that. So you’re talking about feeling like the panic and the weight of the world on your shoulders, and it gets everything that you’re talking about your emotions. We are already best friends because I’m 100%, the exact same way way to the world, all the things. So what do you do in those times obviously then other than talk to your husband and have him kind of like, even you out. What do you do to tell yourself that it’s worth it, like why do you keep going in those moments, What What gives you that drive.

Jill: Really it’s, you know, it’s the time that I get with the kids. That makes it all worth it. Like, I think I would just be crushed. If I was missing all the things that I get to experience with them, like, so those are the moments, you know, that reminds me that like it’s all worth it, and you know I did this for a reason, and that and they’re the reason it’s really to be present and be able to you know be there with them.

Dana: So yeah, I think that the kid factor and it’s funny too, because then like, there’ll be something going on with the kids and that blows up and is a disaster like they’re half asleep regression or like you’re like wait a minute, I was this is supposed to be that happy part of my day and it’s it’s funny to like ride that kind of roller coaster, especially with the little ones when they’re not quite communicating, exactly how they feel yet. So when you’re riding like the roller business emotional roller coaster and then the family emotional roller coaster, it’s sometimes for me it’s like what am I doing I’m doing way too many things at once. But I do feel like it evens out and there are way more times where I’m on like the peak of the roller coaster than than at the bottom for for both sides of it and I think that’s when I have to like, really. Okay, take a lot of videos, write down how I’m feeling like make sure I have this so that I can go back and look and be like hey, that’s why I’m doing all of this.

Jill: Yeah, I think having that tangible evidence can be really helpful, and if you don’t have any tangible evidence for anybody listening I highly recommend taking some, some videos and having them, even in like an album on your, on your phone, like of of happy videos of you and the kids or them doing something funny so.

Dana: Well, Jill, thank you so so much for coming on, you’re such an interesting person in general, but this business to me is super fascinating so tell everybody where we can find you.

Jill: So yeah, you can find me at Cromwell collective website chrome collective on Instagram, although I’m really not on it at all.

Dana: well good well thank you so much for coming on and it was such pleasure to talk to you today.

Jill: You too. Thanks so much.

Dana: All right, bye.

Dana: I am so honored you spent any minutes of your day listening to me babble about living this entrepreneurial life amidst the chaos in any mom’s normal day to day. If you love what you’ve heard and read more snippets of knowledge about this mom Boss Life, head over to our website at amidstthechaospodcast.com for show notes and links to anything mentioned in today’s episode. If you’re really feeling inspired, it would mean the world to me and my family if you take the time to write in with you. Thanks for joining me, amidst the chaos.

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